PipelineDeals' CEO speaks with Jack Kosakowski of the Creation Agency | PipelineDeals

Grow University Digging In with Jack Kosakowski


JP Werlin: Hi, and welcome to our latest installment of Digging In. Digging In is a video series, where help you, the sales leader, the sales representative get better at what you do every day, and that is to sell. I am JP Werlin, the CEO of Pipeline Deals, and we love salespeople. I know they have a lot to share and also have a strong desire to keep learning. Today, I am pleased to welcome Jack Kosakowski, who is the Global Head of B2B Social Sales Execution at Creation Agency. Jack, welcome.

Jack Kosakowski: Thank you, sir. I am excited to be here. It should be fun.

JP: I appreciate you taking the time. And why don't you tell us a little bit about your journey and what is Creation Agency?

Jack: Yeah, for sure. 12 years in sales. I have had an interesting ride. I have been all the way from manufacturing to technology SAAS, so my last kind of stop was Act On Software. I was there for about 2.5 years. I did a little over 1.3 million in revenue with an average deal size of around 9K to 12K, so did really, really well there. Great company. And then my thought leadership kind of evolved over the last three years from social selling, which was actually a sales rep that was in the weeds that was using social and actually getting a result, which is revenue, which is not typically talked about in the social selling world.

So, just found this to be kind of my passion and I look at it as kind of a movement now. I am just trying to really give people actionable tips, processes that are scalable versus one-to-one on more of a company level. Company scalable program.

JP: Got it. Makes a ton of sense, and I think social selling gets a bad wrap and a lot of people do not understand what it takes to do social selling well, and that is why I was intrigued and thankful for the time you are taking today because I wanted to dig in, pun intended, into why did you, as a successful sales rep, driving one million dollars into a great marketing automation SAAS company - what struck you about social selling that you saw an opportunity to go out on your own, leave probably a pretty good commission and some good income to go do the entrepreneurial thing, yet put all the bet on these two words - social selling?

Jack: Yeah, so I do not know if I necessarily leveraged in putting all my eggs in the social selling basket because I truly do believe that one day we will just call this sales. So, I would say that it is more leveraging kind of the new ideology that I believe in, which is sales is marketing and marketing is sales, and there is no way around it. I mean I am not saying that one does not have a different identity than the other, but they really are blending and a lot of people do not want to admit that. They do not want to have that conversation, but at the end of the day, somebody has got to have it and I have just kind of made it my passion that I was going to put my neck on the line and look like an idiot to a lot of people and get into a lot of arguments for a long time, until now, when the light bulb started to go off and people are like oh, Jack, you actually kind of did know what you were talking about.

JP: Right.

Jack: And now it is more than this. What I look at is really diving deep into the data now and figuring out how could we use the data to scale processes around this so that actually the buyer and the seller both win in the end, because I mean that is what it is all about. And if companies could figure that out, whether it is social selling or cold calling - I do not care what it is. If you could figure out where the buyer and the seller both win, which I think is social selling, it is only going to have a long-term impact on the bottom line and the relationship piece too, right?

JP: Right. No, we know sales is about relationships. I think we have talked a lot about that, and you know that well obviously, and to build a relationship you have to have conversations, and so one begets the other. And so, that is an interesting concept. I want to get to the data driven decisions here in a minute, but first an interesting concept. This merging. The blurring of the lines between marketing and sales. What do you see happening in successful companies today, how are those lines being blurred, and if I am sitting here as a VP of Sales or a line level salesperson, carrying a quota, what should I do with that blurring line?

Jack: Well, first I want to hit on the point about relationships because I do believe that the whole relationship thing is kind of a big, fluffy piece of social selling. We all know that relationships move the needle at the end of the day, but here is the problem. If you think about this, if 20 percent of sales reps do 80 percent of the revenue, if you look at the statistic, does that mean that those other 80 percent of sales reps do not have relationships? No, absolutely not. So, relationships are an important piece of sales, but you have got to know how to freaking sell. I mean at the end of the day relationships. How many times have you had sales reps come in and tell you oh, my dad works here and I have got connections here, and the next thing you know, six months down the road they are sitting with zero on the board, right?

JP: Yeah.

Jack: So, relationships. Social selling is about strategic, focused, value relationships on the front end, strengthening your good sales ability in the sales process, and then even better is leveraging other communication channels in the sales process so that you are not just picking up the phone and email, begging for something all the time and strengthening through what I call value touches. And it is not going to close the deal for you, but it is going to help open the deal up and strengthen the relationships that you can get to that point where you have earned their time and their business.

JP: So, you walk into a company. Who do you talk to first: the marketing team or the sales team?

Jack: Typically I want to talk to the marketing team first because I am going to tell you this right now. Sales is only as good as the marketing team. The days of the good sales guy that did not need marketing, he has got the referral network and he can cold call his way to China - well, those days are over. Let's be honest. CEOs are not picking up random numbers on their cellphone anymore. We have got blockades and all that. You are not getting through gatekeepers like you used to be able to get through.

And the other thing is you are not starting off on the right foot, in my opinion, if you do that strategy, because if you get somebody on the phone, you are blindly asking them for something that you have never earned the right to ask for. And we do not think about that in sales. We think oh, we have got the best product in the world, but you do not have the best product in the world. Five other people have a product just like yours, and the buyer knows that. The other thing is we do not have the keys to the vault anymore of the brochure, the information from the buyer that we can hold against them. Those days are over as well.

We now are at the mercy of the buyer, their time, and their resources. People are not making decisions and gambling like they used to because you are a good salesperson and you told them well, if you do this, you are going to be ahead of your competitors. Those days are over. So, we have got to figure out how to be proactive versus reactive and build a pipeline that is proactive and it is slowly building what I call the digital relationship so that when we get to the point that we are ready to ask or the buyer is ready to give us their time and business that we have done all the right things on the front end so that we can strengthen and make sure that everything on the backend goes faster, more efficient, and both people are happy with how that works.

JP: So, I think the front end would be marketing and the backend would be the sales and delivery aspect of the deal.

Jack: Yeah, well, let's just think about this. So, typically what happens is, in marketing, you have got a funnel, and typically marketing is the only one that has had a funnel. Sales does not have a funnel. They just kind of wait for marketing to tell them when to come in or when to do something. So, if we think about marketing automation, for example, content is created. It is tweeted out. It is paid, organic. It is emailed out. And then we put them through a buyer's journey, which is what marketing determines is the right way that the buyer wants you to market to them.

Well, what happens is, in the traditional model, marketing markets, markets, markets, markets, markets, gets to a lead score, gets to the middle of the funnel and sales makes that call. Hey, I saw you downloaded a white paper, this or that, and the buyer goes I have no clue who you are. I barely know your company. I downloaded because I was trying to learn something for my online MLM business. I do not know. I am making that up.

JP: Sure.

Jack: So, the new type of methodology is marketing and sales start together at the top of the funnel. Now, does that mean sales has to create the content? Absolutely not, right? But what that means is that marketing is assisting sales at this point, so marketing is sending out an email and sales is going and connecting on Twitter, following the person on Twitter. They are going and they are liking their LinkedIn post. They are reading one of the publishers that just came out because when that email message goes out from marketing, what is sales doing at the top of the funnel? They are getting visible and they are getting valuable so that when get to the middle of the funnel, they are visible, valuable, and already connected, and now we can have a real conversation with the buyer. They already know who you are. You are not waiting to come in late.

JP: So, what are your top three tactics for a salesperson to get visible and valuable at the top of the funnel?

Jack: So, you have got to (A) proactively go out and you have got to follow somebody. Twitter is the best way to do that. A lot of people do not have a lot of Twitter followers. Now you have got to follow them and then you have got to watch their social data. You have got to watch what is important to them. You have got to really start thinking about a personal, proactive way of engagement. Some way that you do not sell, but you give them value and you get visibility.

Example: if I was going after a CEO and I knew that that was kind of my target prospecting voice at a company, I am going to go right away, once marketing starts this campaign, and I am going to follow them on Twitter and I am going to go look at their LinkedIn profile. I am going to start that little hey, guess who is here. I am not going to ask you for anything because that is what every other sales rep does. I am not that sales rep. I am going to slowly build that connection, that genuine relationship through hey, you wrote a piece of content. The CEO comes out with a piece of content. Guess who is going to be the first one that is going to engage and share that on LinkedIn and tag him, share that on Twitter and tag him, share that on Google Plus and tag him? Who is going to engage? Who is going to become an advocate for that CEO two months prior before he even knows that he is ready to buy your product?

So, there is a whole proactive aspect to the buying process. It is not we get the conversation right away. It is we earn the conversation over time, and if we do it right, we have influenced our way to be able to ask for that sale and they want to give us their time. It will not be we are begging for it if we do it right.

JP: So, the recipe is Twitter first, then LinkedIn, and then Google Plus.

Jack: I mean it really does not matter. My thing is you really never know. Everybody is social in their own ways. There are times on Facebook. I have connected with people on Facebook that are executives and gone through that channel. I do not think that there is a one-size-fits-all social selling strategy for each buyer because the simple fact is we all social differently. We all do things differently.

JP: Got it. And so, part of the trick then is figuring out how do people social, if that is a verb.

Jack: I think part of the problem is that most salespeople do not know their buyer persona. They do not know who they are selling to. They do not know that if they got in the conversation right now and nurtured this just for a little while is the exact person that the data tells them they should be selling to. And the data tells them that because of all the opportunities that they have had, they passed through the CRM, they have returned and actually closed and been won. We got through the data, and that is marketing's fault. That is leadership's fault a lot of times, because you go ask a lot of sales reps at a company: if I could give you the perfect person on the phone right now, who would it be? Tidal industry. Segment size. And if the sales rep does not know that, you need to start there.

JP: So, buyer persona. Tidal industry. Segment size. Is there anything else you like to see on a buyer persona or ideal customer profile (ICP)?

Jack: Well, there are a lot of things, like Datanize. Datanize will go through and it will tell you what technologies. This is a forward thinking company. Is this somebody that is ahead of the curve or I guess early adopter or late adopter or lagger? Those things are super important. Why would you go beat your head on the pavement, which a lot of companies are doing, and try to sell laggers? I call that insanity. That is why most sales rep never hit quota, because they keep doing the same thing over and over and getting the same result.

So, in most organizations, you have got to sit down, and I would send out a survey to your sales team. Figure out if they know the answer to this. Who would you say is the target? And you have your different list of questions. I think everybody would be a little bit different, but find out first do my salespeople even know who they should be selling to, because if not, you are in big trouble.

JP: Whose job is that in the organization to come up with the buyer persona?

Jack: I think it is VP of Sales and the CMO. I think they have worked together to figure that out. At the end of the day, those are the two people that are driving everybody else in their department, and the data will tell them that and they should know that. If you are a CMO and you do not know that, you are probably not going to have a job for very long. And if you are a VP of Sales and you do not know that, there are two things that are happening. You are either so disconnected from the actual selling piece of your sales team that you probably want to get back on the floor or two, you just do not understand the way that this shift in selling has gotten.

And people do not want to waste their time anymore. Everybody has been on a demo. They have been info dumped. They do not want to spend their time listening to a sales rep tell them how amazing the features and functions of a tool are anymore. They want to spend their time talking to a sales rep that understands who they are, and really the best sales reps are the ones that get the buyer on the phone and they know the buyer better than the buyer does because those are the only people they sell to. You do not need to know how everybody buys or what is important to everybody. You just need to know who the exact buyer persona that you are trying to sell to - how they buy, how they think, and what they want. And if you know that, every demo will be that much better.

JP: Yeah. And a lot of times in different sales organizations, there tends to be an ideal customer, but there tends to be somebody either both above and below that person who might have the decision authority or might be an influencer in the decision making process and sometimes you might not be just selling to one person. You could be selling to three people or a team. How do you navigate those waters?

Jack: Well, you have just given me this I guess on a silver platter. So, think about social like this. One of the biggest successes I have had at Acton was we never knew was going to buy. I mean sometimes you would talk to a marketing director at a company and they would literally write a check or make the decision and you would be like wow, this is the most low level person at this company and you would get a 30-thousand-dollar PO. So, you have really got to use social to triangulate before the sales process and during the sales process so that you get visible, valuable and connected below the line, middle of the line, and above the line so you can protect yourself because you never know who you are actually going to have to have the hard conversation with and when you are going to have to have it. So, be proactive about that and use social to get there.

JP: And then figure out who may or may not be involved in the decision making process and the ultimate decision.

Jack: Yeah, and LinkedIn navigator now is giving you tons of great data around that, saying here is a contact. Here is who I think is the target buyer persona. But if you look at it, it will tell you these two people above and these two people below are around them as the decision maker. So, if you cannot get to them, either go to this person or this person, and it really gives you that data around who you should be talking to. Not just the one person, but the three people around that person.

JP: Right, LinkedIn lays it all out for you. Almost an (Unclear 17:56.6) chart. Not quite, but pretty darn close.

Jack: Yeah, and I mean if you are not using that data, you are an idiot because that means you are going through sales processes and what most salespeople do. Have a great demo. They think they are at the right title. They run into the sales manager. They said they needed it yesterday. The sales manager rolls their eyes, like I have heard this. I looked at your pipeline and none of it is closed, right?

So, now what I do is I always second-guess myself. Well, that went really well, but let me see who else around here is going to influence the real decision on this, because the marketing director or somebody in marketing might say I can sign this. Well, yeah, they might be able to sign it, but they cannot make the decision that they can sign it, but the CEO is going to go I do not want to be on that call. I hate getting info dumped by sales reps and looking at a tool that you are going to use. And then the marketing director looks at it, she goes and talks to the CEO. This one is a little bit more expensive, but.

So, now all of a sudden you have got three of the same tools, the CEO has not seen any of them, and now he is just thinking which one will make my marketing director happier, because there is a level of happiness that tools bring to CEO's or executive's teams. They know if I give them this tool, I will make their life easier, they will be more efficient, and they will stick around because I am actually supporting them.

JP: Right.

Jack: But here is the deal. What if the price tag is a lot more on the one that the marketing director wants? Well, it might be worth every penny, but the problem is if you do not have the relationship or you do not have any connection to that CEO and he cannot see into what your true value is; and he does not even have to conversation with you, but if he goes to your LinkedIn profile and sees that you have nine enterprise recommendations from other VPs in this space, he goes wow, that extra thousand dollars is worth every penny.

JP: Right. Right. So, you mentioned tool sets. I think that is a good segue. What are your favorite tool sets of a sales rep? LinkedIn navigator. You walk into a sales team. What do you like to see hanging on the tool belt, or maybe, inversely, what do you see missing a lot that should be on that tool belt?

Jack: The number one thing I see missing all the time is marketing automation. It just blows my mind that a company sells blind. Marketing is doing all these things. Email, social, and all these great inbound things to get visibility, branding, and generate leads. Well, the problem is that most companies - this is where their gap is and why their sales team is over here and their marketing team is over here, is because sales does not see all this cool stuff that is happening. They do not get to see the data that is aligned with the lead that came in through email. They just see the title and this is a crap lead.

Well, once you bring marketing automation in the mix, it actually holds marketing accountable and sales accountable through visibility because now you can see who opened those emails, who clicked through those emails, when was the last time they were on the website. Get an alert when they go back and watch a video. Sales has to have visibility into all the things that marketing are doing, and they have to have it real time so that they can give the customer a better experience and they could be more timely. Instead of begging people on the phone that are not ready to buy, they need to know who marketing has spent a lot of time and money on that are actually on the website that are looking and are interested in what you have to offer.

JP: Right. And so, what do you think a great entry level marketing automation tool that folks should consider? I guess think for an unsophisticated firm maybe just getting on the technology bandwagon. Maybe they just got a CRM. They moved off of spreadsheets. What is a good entry level, beginner's marketing automation tool?

Jack: So, I will tell you right now that I know marketing automation better than a lot of people, and I am saying this from a completely nonbiased standpoint even though I did work at Acton. Acton takes the cake for SMB and I would say that it is getting close to taking over the enterprise, and there is one simple reason. If you want Marketo, you literally have to hire somebody that just knows how to run Marketo just to get the thing running. It is HTML coding. You cannot just build emails and you cannot build landing pages or things very simple.

(Unclear 22:28.3) has got a lot better, but I would say they are still upstream and they only integrate with Sales Force, which is kind of a tough thing. Acton is the only tool that you could actually not even have to be a marketer, and trust me I am not a marketer. I am a salesperson, so I just use the tools at Acton and they are that easy to use, but they give you the data. The data is what I look at. When I am in sales, I am all about the data because data will tell me what I need to do, when I need to be doing it, and it will actually get me to where I need to go. Velocity, right? We are all about speed and velocity in the sales process. If you are selling blind, you do not have that. Acton gives you the best data and it is actually easy to use, and it is pretty affordable.

I mean Marketo is insanely priced. Hubspot is all right. I am not a huge fan of Hubspot's tool. I think it is built for marketers, like MLM marketers. I do not know. It is not a B2B tool in my opinion.

JP: Anything below Acton from a price tag standpoint in the maybe two to three?

Jack: Fusion Soft, but that is for like an author or something.

JP: Yeah, content.

Jack: Yeah, I mean there is really only four or five players in the space. You have got Acton, Marketo, Pardot, Hubspot, and (Unclear 23:47.0), but (Unclear 23:48.1) is fortune five hundred.

JP: Yeah, I ran across one called Flight Control or something along those lines. A little bit lighter. Easier for folks to swallow and stomach from a price tag standpoint.

Jack: But that is the problem, is marketing automation should be. Your CRM and marketing automation. In my opinion, you cannot be cheap about it. Yeah, you might save five hundred dollars, but if you do not get the data that the other five hundred dollars per month is going to give you that you need, you will not be successful in the first place, so marketing automation is not something you can look at from a price point of view. You have got to look at it from a process and long-term point of view.

JP: So, as a salesperson talking to salespeople - that is predominantly the audience here -, am I too late to start doing Twitter? Has that train left the station? Am I too late to really start posting content and connecting with people on LinkedIn? What would you recommend if I am sitting here, going yeah, I am really busy? I know things are happening out there on the social webs. What would you say to a sales rep like that?

Jack: It depends. If they are a sales rep that is crushing quota and they are doing what they need to do, then I will say well, why. It is up to you, but why fix something that is not broken, right? I am firm believer in that.

JP: if you are not crushing quota. They are just maybe meeting it. Maybe missing it from month-to-month and they are kind of getting by.

Jack: I would say it is do or die. Either make the decision that you are going to get social and you are going to get visible, valuable and build a network of targeted buyers on social, or probably go into marketing or go into customer service or something because you are just not going to make it. It is not going to happen.

JP: Do you think it is the sales rep's responsibility to build their network even if they are not outbound, if they are just inbound sales?

Jack: Yeah, I mean here is the number one thing I see. Here is the thing I hate about sales right now, is the inside sales revolution. I think the inside sales revolution is going to kill sales for a lot of companies, especially the startup level because if you go to Europe, in Europe, when you book a meeting, what happens? The client is expecting you to come to their office. People in Europe still do business with each other. They do not buy a 30-thousand-dollar technology over the phone. It is just very rare because that is not how they do business.

The U.S., my digital marketing guy explained this to me the other day, which is great. The industrial revolution. We try to mass produce everything and get as much money and scalability as fast as we can, but I think that what we are seeing is the shift in sales with all the noise and all these products and buyers are confused is buyers are just going back to the old school. If I am going to make this decision, I am going to research. I want to have a decent relationship. I want to build trust with the salesperson. And you know what. I want to know more about them than just their product. What else do they have to offer me?

The most powerful thing you can have as a salesperson is a network that your buyer wants because here is the thing. Executives especially will look at your product and go yeah, there are five people that sell that, but holy crap you are smart and I need to know what is going on in digital, but I am not going to spend the time to go read about Twitter's new update or how this spider does this or that, but I will tell you what. I would love to be able to call you at any time to figure out what I need to be doing next and just guide me. So, if you are a salesperson in the digital age, you have got to figure out how you can have more value than just what your product does because your product is not that good. And also, your products may be the best right now, but give it a year. It is like your cellphone. It will be obsolete.

So, if you can really figure out a niche and become the industry expert in your field and really understand and have a pulse on what the influencers are saying, what the futurists are saying, and you can convince that executive that you are way more than just the sales rep who sold them that product, they will keep you around and they will keep doing business with you because even if your product does not get ROI, your relationship with them and your insight and your intelligence and your guidance will get them ROI, and that is why you see CEOs that have been doing business with the same people over and over for years when you talk to them.

And the thing is you go well, that product sucks, but you do not realize that they do not care about the product. It is the person behind the product that is actually driving their ROI, and they will bite the bullet on the product any day just to keep that person around.

JP: Yeah. Yeah, they buy the thinking behind it. Makes a ton of sense. Any other things to do with those sales reps who are like I am busy? I have got all these demos. I have got to make all these calls. I have got all this follow up, like my email inbox. How should they make time to be visible and valuable?

Jack: Well, this is what I always laugh about. So, I am busy. I have got all these things going on. Well, you know what. You have been busy for the last year, and whatever you are busy doing is not working. So, maybe it just starts with sales reps that are barely hitting quota or they are not and they cannot figure out why. Really just sitting down and analyzing what am I doing with all this time. Why am I busy? If I do this, if I am cold calling at two 'o clock in the afternoon and I know that I get less than a one-percent connection rate from one to three, but I keep cold calling from one to three, well, I mean hello. That is ten hours per week that you are wasting, that you should readjust what you do from one to three.

Maybe one to three is doing your research. Reading. Sharing. Connecting. Doing all the things you have to do to get visible and valuable because that is kind of the time period where the phone does not work. The emails do not get responded to. So, use the data around your time and analyze, and my thing is I do not say quit cold calling, but I say when are you cold calling. Is it effective? When is the most effective time to cold call? When is the most effective time to do your prospecting analysis? Well, I can tell you right now that you are probably on Facebook as is, looking at your best friend's new truck that he got or the new girl he is dating. You are probably doing that two hours per day.

And trust me if you are a sales leader, walking the floor because your salespeople are on social all day. They are just not doing anything to move the needle. They are just holding the needle back. So, figure out where you can fill those gaps and make your time efficient and use social to strengthen your sales process or what you are doing.

JP: Right, as opposed to just catching up on the high school reunion.

Jack: Yeah, or on LinkedIn. How many sales reps just go through LinkedIn? They just go read. They just go scroll down. Scroll down. But how many sales reps are actually saying boom, wow, that piece of content? I could connect that piece of content with value messaging to get visible and valuable to that CEO instead of just cold calling him. Hey, he just came out with an article that said that they just made the Inc. 5000 three years in a row. Wow, congratulations. Tag the CEO. Congrats on this. This is amazing. I have never seen a company make it three years in a row since I have been in sales. Awesome. Share it. Tag them. Become an advocate.

Use all that data in your LinkedIn feed and use actual tips that are going to give you that visibility and that value versus just staring at it all day. It is not going to do you any good. Get smart, get value focused, and get really focused on the people around the accounts you are trying to get into.

JP: Yeah, I think an important part to recognize is that in today's world, we are often, especially in subscription-based service companies or anywhere where you resell or upsell, you can also do it for existing customers and keep that relationship cemented. It is not just for new. It is also for existing.

Jack: Some of the most success I have ever had in sales was just doing things on a more personal level from the customers and staying involved with my customers. And the thing is most people want to call your customer. Your customer does not want to talk to you unless they have a problem. They are busy. They have a job. They hired your tool to actually eliminate their time. They do not want to spend more time talking to you about the damn tool.

JP: Right.

Jack: But if your buyers writes a piece of content, and I will tell you this. One time I shared a piece of content. This customer. I had not talked to her in a while. I did not know if she was doing all right on her account. It did not look like they were using it that much. She wrote a blog about some emotional breakdown that she had, and she got really deep into what was going on in her life and how it was affecting her family and stuff. And honestly I found the blog. I just Googled her. It was a buzz, zoom or something. I found a random lead.

And you know what is crazy is I shared that on Facebook and tagged her because it was really good, but I said wow, this is incredible to know so and so because she was really an amazing woman. I think I said something like I am really glad that I got to know so and so, and it is amazing how somebody can put themselves out there like this because it could probably help a ton of people. And a week later, I got a 60-thousand-dollar upsell from the lady I had not talked to in six months in email that said Jack, we need to talk. I have been wanting to get a hold of you, but wow, do you know how much it meant to me that you shared that, and my wife even posted it and she did not even know it was a prospect and she was like really intrigued by it.

Long story, but it was a week or two later I get this email from her that is like literally emotional and she said and by the way, I need to talk. We have got some things we need to fix. But that is how sales is done these days. Salespeople want to spray and prey. They want to ask for things that they have never earned. And I do not know if it is their fault or sales leadership's fault by just pounding them on KPIs that will never get them where they need to be and just stepping back and saying you know what. This quarter, we are okay if you do not hit quota. Let's have a new KPI. Let's have value conversation KPIs to say how many people did you do something of value for that could be a potential buyer.

How many times did you have a conversation that had nothing to do with our product? Imagine that as a KPI.

JP: Yeah, awesome. Well, Jack, I appreciate your time. That is some great feedback and some great tips and tricks for folks to take back to their sales organizations or maybe just start doing today from their desk after watching this video. Really appreciate your time. Very gracious of you. Thank you.

Jack: Yeah, thanks for having me.

JP: All right, What is the best way to probably reach out to you? Probably on Twitter.

Jack: Yeah, tweet me. I am in conversation all day long on Twitter, so you tweet me and I will reply.

JP: All right, Jack. Well, Jack, thank you very much again for joining us here on Digging In, and we will catch you next time.

Jack: Awesome. Thank you.

JP: Thanks.

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